Uutiset:

Kirjoittaja Aihe: Trouble with the määlämpo unautorized installation  (Luettu 1296 kertaa)

Poissa adlem2

  • Tulokas
  • *
  • Viestejä: 6
  • Maalämpöfoorumi
Greetings,

I am sorry to use english but my finnish is pretty bad. I hope it is ok and i would be able to get some advice/ support (and i hope i am in the good forum / good part to raise this issue)

We have buy a package from a company to install the määlämppo this was including :
- request of authorization to dig the hole
- digging the ground (220m)
- installation of the määlämppo ( Bosh 7001i LWM)

The contract is pretty clear that the work should not start without official permission and that it is part of their task to get it.

They have now performed the work : digging the hole, installing the pipe.

Now it is time to install the määlämppo but we got the news that from the company that Tampere rejected the permission and that the company has start the work and dig the ground by mistake without waiting the permission.

We end up with :
- 10+k€ of work already paid.
- several damage on the garden
- Some pipes for nothing
- Disturbance during the summer. And no heat system replacement for our oil heating system

It does not seems that they are taking the accountability and working seriously to try to correct their mistake.

Do you have any advice of how to proceed? Do you know already similar cases (the ground digged by mistake with no permission)?

Most likely we will have to install some lma-vesilämpöpumppu. But of course i would expect the money back and the garden fixed.

And what to do with the non-autorized digging?

Thanks in advance for your support. I can google translate the text in finnish if it is better.

Terveisin,
Adrien




Poissa Geo-Keijo

  • Nuorempi jäsen
  • **
  • Viestejä: 16
  • Maalämpöfoorumi
Vs: Trouble with the määlämpo unautorized installation
« Vastaus #1 : 10.08.19 - klo:09:22 »
Please let us know first
- were there only some formal mistakes with the permission papers
Or
- was the decision final and no geothermal digging is allowed in any circumstances

Regards from Keijo
Jämä Star RST 8kW + UKV-100 + kaivo 160m, alkaen 5/2015. Järvenpää, vm1976 yksitasotalo 115m2. Patterit: 1-lehtisiä molemmilla puolilla konvektiolamelli ja tavall. 2-lehtisiä. KH-lattiassa sähkölämmitys.

Poissa adlem2

  • Tulokas
  • *
  • Viestejä: 6
  • Maalämpöfoorumi
Vs: Trouble with the määlämpo unautorized installation
« Vastaus #2 : 10.08.19 - klo:09:35 »
It seems to be final.
Here is the explanation received :
"ja Tampereen Rakennusvalvonta ilmoitti 6.8 iltapäivästä että osoitteeseen xxxxxx ei saa porata maalämpökaivoa koska kohde sijaitsee pohjavesialueella. Tampere on tiukentanut säädöksi huhtikuussa 2019 ja esimerkiksi xxxxx on porannut maaliskuussa ihan osoitteenne viereen maalämpökaivon vielä."

Some damage on the garden due to the water are certainly due to the fact that they hit the water underground when digging

Poissa Roori

  • Konkari
  • *****
  • Viestejä: 3 754
  • Maalämpo... Ollakko vai Ei....KYLLÄ
Vs: Trouble with the määlämpo unautorized installation
« Vastaus #3 : 10.08.19 - klo:09:48 »
Is this contract clearly "TURNKEY" thing?

If yes then you should get quickly some answers how to proceed, money back and return things back as they where and fix damages (hole).
Do they know in Tampere Rakennusvalvonta that hole is already done? Anyhow at some point they will or should and they demand to do something to the hole.
Maybe they can make an exception...worth of asking by your contractor or your self?

Poissa adlem2

  • Tulokas
  • *
  • Viestejä: 6
  • Maalämpöfoorumi
Vs: Trouble with the määlämpo unautorized installation
« Vastaus #4 : 10.08.19 - klo:16:46 »
Hi.
Yes it is this type of contract.
So we will check Tampere rakennusvalvonta if an exception can be made and if not, we will check what need to be done withe the hole starting anything else.
Then I hope that the contractor will fullfil his responsibility and fix the mistake.


Poissa Geo-Keijo

  • Nuorempi jäsen
  • **
  • Viestejä: 16
  • Maalämpöfoorumi
Vs: Trouble with the määlämpo unautorized installation
« Vastaus #5 : 10.08.19 - klo:22:07 »
This forum is excellent as to technical problems but most likely is not the best place for law consultations.

If you are not the member of Omakotiliitto, I really recommend membership to you.
The members are provided free law consultation on phone.

More info can be got from
https://www.omakotiliitto.fi/jasenelle/palvelut/neuvonta
Jämä Star RST 8kW + UKV-100 + kaivo 160m, alkaen 5/2015. Järvenpää, vm1976 yksitasotalo 115m2. Patterit: 1-lehtisiä molemmilla puolilla konvektiolamelli ja tavall. 2-lehtisiä. KH-lattiassa sähkölämmitys.

Poissa Roori

  • Konkari
  • *****
  • Viestejä: 3 754
  • Maalämpo... Ollakko vai Ei....KYLLÄ
Vs: Trouble with the määlämpo unautorized installation
« Vastaus #6 : 11.08.19 - klo:09:27 »
First option is to get contractor to finish the work, fix the already done hole 'what to do with it' or to get them to arrange this exception permit.

Maybe you have already pushed/asked contractor much, but anyhow you should get answers from contractor what is going to happen...

Sounds that all the work done so far in worthless if you can not use the hole?
Thus, in principle and hole going to be illegal finally, you should get everything as it was and all money back due the "TURNKEY" project

Disadvantage is that you already paid 10+ which sounds more than the cost of that hole...and also this (what ever this is)
Lainaus
Some damage on the garden due to the water are certainly due to the fact that they hit the water underground when digging

Do you now this place https://www.kkv.fi/kuluttajaneuvonta    and this https://www.kuluttajariita.fi/fi/index.html , you could also ask some advise from there!

Also the hole can be filled, but I do not know does it give any advantage thinking the permission...
https://www.maalampofoorumi.fi/index.php?topic=5927.0

Poissa Skipi

  • Täysjäsen
  • ***
  • Viestejä: 30
  • Maalämpöfoorumi
Vs: Trouble with the määlämpo unautorized installation
« Vastaus #7 : 11.08.19 - klo:11:52 »
I M just wondering why you allowed to start drill without permission? Were you away from home or how this is possible? You can’t just blame contractor if you let them drill without permission.

I recommend first contact Tampere and tell what happened, say you are sorry and ask can they do exception and allow your project.



Poissa adlem2

  • Tulokas
  • *
  • Viestejä: 6
  • Maalämpöfoorumi
Vs: Trouble with the määlämpo unautorized installation
« Vastaus #8 : 11.08.19 - klo:16:45 »
Hi,
Thanks all for your answer. I understand also that this forum is more technical (some analysis that i read with google translate are pretty impressive), but was trying my chance if someone had similar case. But yes, i will follow now your advices and links.

Thanks for the links (Omakotiliitto / https://www.kkv.fi/ kuluttajaneuvonta ), very useful, we are checking those in detail with my wife.

I might not have been clear enough but they have already dig the hole, put the pipe and fill it (so the only step left is to put the määlämpo/ Bosh system)

For the latest question, excellent question.
1 company proposed the full package drilling / bosh 70001ghw ) . Target was exactly to avoid those situations and to have everything included)

The contractor was on charge of asking the permission (we have been invoiced for this at least ) and ordered the sub contractor to dig the hole and put the pipes :

From the list of tasks for the Lämpökaivo part in the contract are :

"Lämpökaivo
Lämpökaivo 1 kpl
Yhden lämpökaivon syvyys, 40mm keruuputkistolla 220 m
Alkumetrit teräsputkiporaus 3m per kaivo
Läpiviennit
Pölynsidontakontti
Lämpökaivon teräskansi 1 kpl
Kaivuutyö 11 m
Vaakaputket 11 m
Toimenpideluvan haku 1 kpl"

2 weeks ago, we got a call, "people are coming Monday" that's all. Now we get the info that that was a mistake..  :( .
Maybe my expectations were wrong but i would have expect when you pay 20+k€  to a company, to handle a heat system project, that they are taking full accountability. I guess we are learning in the hard way.







Poissa Skipi

  • Täysjäsen
  • ***
  • Viestejä: 30
  • Maalämpöfoorumi
Vs: Trouble with the määlämpo unautorized installation
« Vastaus #9 : 11.08.19 - klo:18:42 »
This is very bad business by contractor. They should be professionals and help customers not cause them  problems. I had a similar project this summer and rakennuslupa was a showstopper. Nothing scheduled before it was approved. Every company should know that it is needed before start drilling hole. I wish you good luck to get this finalized with good results.

Poissa euroshopperi

  • Konkari
  • *****
  • Viestejä: 2 316
  • Maalämpöfoorumi
Vs: Trouble with the määlämpo unautorized installation
« Vastaus #10 : 27.08.19 - klo:22:20 »
Try to ask, if it is possible tu use socking tube to isolate the piping from the groundwater. And useing Geosafe liquid, not Naturet.
350m², 1000m³, kaivot 2x165m 17kW Viessmann 300 G+ 390 L KVV+ 500 L puskuri LV kierukalla+ Aurinko

Poissa adlem2

  • Tulokas
  • *
  • Viestejä: 6
  • Maalämpöfoorumi
Vs: Trouble with the määlämpo unautorized installation
« Vastaus #11 : 29.08.19 - klo:16:17 »
Thanks Skipi for your message and euroshopperi for the good advice i will transmit this to the company.

Some update :
- Still a lot of höpö höpö and no progress
- The company which dig and installed the well do not want to pay the exception fines.

So now we are pushing >:(

Poissa fraatti

  • Konkari
  • *****
  • Viestejä: 4 024
  • Maalämpöfoorumi
Vs: Trouble with the määlämpo unautorized installation
« Vastaus #12 : 29.08.19 - klo:16:39 »
Try to ask, if it is possible tu use socking tube to isolate the piping from the groundwater. And useing Geosafe liquid, not Naturet.

Geosafe is also Naturet, Naturet geosafe.  ;)
https://www.altiaindustrial.com/fi/tuote/naturet-17-degc-naturet-17-degc-geosafe
Viessmann Vitocal 333-G, 180m kaivo
171m2/500m3 talo + 70m2/200m3 talousrakennus
Kokonaissähkö n 10000kWh(MLP n 5500kWh, IV-kone n 700kWh)

Poissa adlem2

  • Tulokas
  • *
  • Viestejä: 6
  • Maalämpöfoorumi
Vs: Trouble with the määlämpo unautorized installation
« Vastaus #13 : 05.09.19 - klo:16:11 »
We got answer from Tampere, no exception or acceptance whatever the product used  :-[

Rototec has then to undo their work and we should get the money back.

- Do you know what are the risk if this work is not done properly? Or if they leave some part on the ground?
- We have some air ventilation system on the home (year 1954/ 180m2), would Poistoilmalämpöpumppu + oil or vesi ilmalämpöpumppu be the best alternative?

Terveisin,
Adrien

Poissa kotte

  • Täysjäsen
  • ***
  • Viestejä: 118
  • Maalämpöfoorumi
Vs: Trouble with the määlämpo unautorized installation
« Vastaus #14 : 05.09.19 - klo:21:38 »
- We have some air ventilation system on the home (year 1954/ 180m2), would Poistoilmalämpöpumppu + oil or vesi ilmalämpöpumppu be the best alternative?
Since your well had the planned depth of 220 metres, heat consumption of the house must be rather substantial and exceeds the capacity of typical exhaust air heat pump units targeted for home owners (poistoilmalämpöpumppu) resulting in high electricity consumption (since the heat pump has inadequate capacity and considerable resistive heating must be used as a supporting heat source). Air to water heat pump (vesi-ilmalämpöpumppu) is the primary choice to be considered in this case (possibly supported by oil for very low outside temperatures, but not necessarily -- depending on the kind of pump and existing electric wiring). This is independent of the current ventilation arrangements or possible upgrading of the ventilation system.

If you want to ask or discuss the alternatives, I recommend consulting the site https://lampopumput.info/foorumi (in Finnish, but people will understand, if you use English) on practical experiences, domestic information, personal consumer and merchant views etc. on the topic.